Behind the Scenes with Dan Haylett: The Retirement You Didn’t See Coming

Hi, and welcome to Financial Behavior Thought Leaders. I'm Mary, and this podcast takes you behind the scenes with top speakers in financial services. So whether you're a financial advisor, an event planner, or a financial professional eager to learn from industry thought leaders, you're in the right place. Be sure and share this episode so more people can enjoy the conversation. Today we're featuring Dan Haylett, a retirement coach, author of the Retirement yout Didn't See Coming and host of the Humans vs Retirement podcast. Dan brings a refreshing and sometimes humorous perspective on retirement, flipping the script on what life looks like after work and what it really looks like. Let's dive into his journey, his keynote, and a story that always resonates. Welcome to the podcast, Dan.

Mary, thank you so much for having me on. I cannot wait to talk to you about this stuff. Can't wait.

I am so excited, too, because I want to jump straight to the book because I finished it not too long ago and was just thrilled with it. But before we get to that keynote in your book, I want you to take a step back for a minute. We want to know what. How did you get started in speaking? What led you to the stage?

Yeah, I think I've always felt, I suppose I'm one of those weird people. You know, when people say that they, you know, one of the worst things that you can ever inflict on someone is asking to speak in public. Yeah, I actually quite like it. I quite like talking in public. I quite like standing on my feet and speaking. I quite like. I don't know whether commanding an audience is the right sound a bit. And so from an early age, from an early age, from my, from my early career that I had before I become a financial planner and retirement coach and everything, I used to present a lot.

So I used to present to rooms of people and it was a prerequisite of my job. I had to learn how to. How, how to present. So it wasn't necessarily keynote or on stage, but, you know, 20, 30 people in a room presenting. So I've always had that in me. And then what's led to this journey really for me is how much I love presenting and putting on a show. And I say that from a place of. When I deal with clients on a one on one basis.

I started the podcast two and a half years ago. All of that, to me is kind of presenting, putting on a show. It's, you know, it kind of getting people to take your advice, showing your expertise. And for me, it was just this natural journey that I wanted to take these messages, take this learning and get it into the biggest, widest audience I could get it to and in the most impactful way. And I've listened to so many people talk on stage that have had such impact on me. I thought, gee, I'd love to be that person that could stand on stage, command an audience and have an impact on those people listening. So yeah, that's kind of where it's, where it's led to me. And I've gone feet first and head first and thought, let's give this a shot.

So yeah, I love it, I love it. Well, and let's dive in feet first and head first straight into your book, the retirement you didn't see coming. So Dan, I have to tell you, I loved the personalization this book offered. It wasn't a shaming, it wasn't a let me tell you how to do it type book. It was one that I really felt like you walk with the reader and you talk about money and retirement, to be real honest of what you think it's going to look like and what it actually is like. So take us on a journey. What, what brought about the book and how did you decide this is something I need to write on?

Yeah, I mean, someone asked me the other day actually, how long did it take you to write the book? Because it felt like it didn't take that long from the moment you were kind of talking about it to getting it out there. And I said it probably actually took me seven years. Right? I mean, I've been doing this non stop for seven years in terms of one on one retirement planning with people. And really what brought me to writing the book was those seven years of real conversations with real people understanding their real challenges. Couple that with the fact that my interest really early on into my financial planning career on the psychology of money, on people's behaviors around money and the retirement transition. And again, I, you know, I like dig deep. I go into the well with this stuff a lot. So that really kind of sparked all of that.

And then the podcast two and a half years ago where I again dived headfirst into setting up the podcast and having these amazing conversations with global leading experts on behavior and money and psychology. And it got to a point where I was like, gee, I've got 80 odd episodes of Conversations. I've got transcripts after transcripts of client meetings, I've got blogs that I've written and LinkedIn posts. And I wanted a format to go well, actually I could bring this all together and write Something that I think is hugely meaningful for someone to read that allows them to understand the truths behind this retirement transition. Why? Isn't all to do with money. It's more to do with the human side. And I love what you've picked up because my real number one wish for the book was for someone to pick it up and feel like I'm talking directly to them. That's kind of what I wanted it to be.

I didn't want it to be this talk, tell all, I don't know, fluffy thing. I wanted to, you know, hard truths, bit hard hitting, but coming from a place of, you know, of care and understanding that they can feel like they can walk through the book and understand that I'm talking directly to them and some of the challenges that, that they're facing. So again, I think it just, you know, a book is just a wonderful way to get this message out in, into the world and a great place just to get all of those thoughts and conversations down. And it's just, yes, turned out so much better than I thought it was going to turn out in terms of what it actually is and the feedback that I've got.

Well, and I would say it's masterful in the fact that as a financial advisor you can read the book and still get takeaways, but it's also very applicable for clients and for any, anyone in that retirement phase. And you do a really masterful job of doing both. I think one of the, that really resonates with me are your sketches and how you also use those to relate and connect. So talk to me a bit about your sketches and how you got started sketching.

Yeah. One of our wonderful financial behavioral keynote group members, Carl Richards. I've spoken to Carl on numerous occasions. Was it being inspiration on trying to, you know, simplify complex life and money subjects? And you know, and I'd, I'd read a lot from Carl as I was starting out seven, eight years ago and didn't really do much kind of intentional sketching. But I, you know, there was a couple of times when I was in client meetings and you're saying words and words aren't getting through. And I remember drawing a couple of sketches. The first one was one where I just drew this net worth line going up and then a coffin at the end going, are you going to get here? I mean, and I look back now and I had that expression, you're just going. I look back, I think, how did they, why did I do that? That's horrendous.

Yeah, they were like, oh, I get it right. See what you're saying is that then, you know, you show them cash flow and spreadsheets and talk about this stuff, but something that was rubbish and took 30 seconds and made me feel a bit squirmish really hit home. So for me, that was the start of that journey going well, actually. There are so many complex issues around this retirement transition that I think can be really simplified down into quite a hard hitting, punchy sketch. I try and hit people, you know, quite hard with these and you know, they're, they're open to interpretation, some of them, but I do really think they resonate. And what I wanted to do with the book is with where I possibly could, where there was chapters or the, the, the different topics that I wanted to, to talk about was to include a sketch because again, I'm a, you know, I think we are visual learners as a race of people anyway. Human beings are, are much more visual, I think, in their learning capabilities in general than anything else. So, yeah, it's been, it's, it's been fantastic.

And I try and sketch as much as I can with clients. I get them to draw as well. So give them a Sharpie and get on the flip chart and say, you know, look, if you could, if you could design this or draw that or what does that mean? Or do a Venn diagram for me and put a couple of things in there. So it's a really, really excellent tool to bring the hard conversations and the emotional conversations into a realm where people feel more comfortable talking about it and more comfortable kind of consuming that information as well.

Wow, that's awesome. Well, let's get to the hard places because let's put you back on a st. Want to know this keynote that mirrors the sketches as well as the book. It's called the retirement you didn't see coming. What is the core message and who is this message best suited for?

Yeah, I think the core message is that retirement is, and there's a chapter in the book that talks about complex problem versus complicated problems versus complex problems. And really the core message behind this is that retirement is more of a human problem than a maths problem. And us as a group of people that are, you know, advisors and financial planners and the financial industry I think have probably got this a bit backwards over the last 20, 30 years. And the public have got this backwards as well in that, you know, it's a focus on if I get the money right, then everything else is cool, isn't it? And what I wanted to tackle with the book. And then this keynote is to say, well actually look, the retirement that you didn't see coming is the retirement that includes all of those human elements that really do make or break your retirement. Purpose and identity and relationships and structure and well being and your ability to spend your money. You know, all these kind of human and behavioral aspects. You can have the most wonderful financial plan that's been optimized to its life with 100% success rate on a Monte Carlo simulation and feel lost and not know what to do on a Tuesday morning at 9:47.

And that's the, that's the retirement that you didn't see coming. And I want to tackle that bit for people that have worked hard, that have saved diligently, that have aspirations to live a wonderful second half of life, but have no idea what might come. And the COVID of the book is someone walking towards a banana skin, right? And it's kind of that bit, it's like this is something that you could really trip and slip you up. And the best, the people that have the best second half of life are the ones that put the work in, that tackle these subjects, that understand them. And that's coming from a place of working with these people on a one to one basis. So, and look, you know, there's, I think advisors and planners will get huge amounts out of this as well as anyone that's, you know, thinking about this transition. You know, advisors will walk away with questions and tools and, and, and, and different, a different aspect of the work that they're doing and how to really make that more meaningful for the, for people they work with. And then members of the public will go away, I think thinking gee, I need to, you know, the stuff I need to work on here to make sure I really take advantage of, of, of this, this phase of life.

Well, and I want to dig into some of the stories because when I read the book, I think some of the things that stuck out for me were Tuesdays and the Tuesday mornings and the refrigerator. Can we dig into those a little bit and give us some context around those?

Yeah, it's that when, when I, when I very, you know, right early on in the book I talk about that. You know, it's that I suppose that the, the moment in retirement, no, no one warned you about is kind of the most dangerous day in retirement. And that most, that, that dangerous day is probably six months in or day 182 and it's probably a Tuesday and it's 9:47 and you're, and you're up and you've opened the fridge and you don't really know what you're looking for. Maybe it's ham or direction or a sign from the Greek yogurt that's sitting in the fridge. And it's, you know, and the dog staring at you going, what the hell are you doing in my house all day? It's these moments that, are the moments that quietly sneak up on you and, and it's those moments in those areas, right? It's that I've opened the fridge for the fourth time and I don't know why I've opened it. It's, you know, it's those kind of moments that I think is the moments that people or the perception of retirement that we have, it's those moments that we're not warned about and they show up very quietly. And then it's not a crisis, it's not a breakdown. It's that kind of quiet whisper in your mind like, no, is this it? Like, is this it? You've gone through a honeymoon phase and now you're like, well, what does life look like? So that's, you know, that's a big part of, of of the keynote and the book that I talk about.

It's building off that, that particular scenario.

I love that story. And if you want to learn more about Dan and his speech, download his speaker sheet at Financial Behavior Thought Leaders forward slash, Dan Haylett. Dan, we want to get to know you a little bit better. And I want to know something that's unique that most people don't know about you.

What's unique? What might be really interesting is to let everyone know about my complete obsession with basketball. So coming from a 6 foot, slightly ginger haired, now balding English kid, I actually play basketball to a pretty high level and, and actually come over to the States for a couple of months to tour around a couple of NAIA colleges to play some basketball. So it never really worked out, but I love basketball. And that would have been, yeah, I think that would have been an area I'd love to, I'd love to have explored, but I was about a foot too, a foot too short. I think. So, yeah.

Or as we better say yet. You retired, right?

I retired.

I just retired.

I wouldn't, I wouldn't have been here, right. I would have been, you know, I'd have been slumming it in some basketball league somewhere. So no, I wouldn't have been in somewhere.

Usa.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, listen, my, I, I love American sports. I'm a green Bay packers fan. I'm a Boston Celtics fan. And yeah, I. I was very, very obsessed with basketball when I was. When I was younger.

I love it. I love it. Well, Dan, is there anything you would want to tell the audience from your perspective of what a big takeaway, if you could tell them one thing about the retirement you didn't see coming. What's that one thing you would want to tell the audience today?

Yeah, I kind of already said it. I think the realization that retirement is more of a human problem than a maths problem. To live a wonderful retirement, you don't need to optimize your spreadsheet. You need to optimize your life. And money is obviously part of the equation. But if we're not linking our money with meaning, then I think a lot of people have real big problems to then actually spend their money. So I talk about this a lot. So I think the one big takeaway is understand that in order to take advantage of those many years of hard work to save a pot of money that give you a sense of freedom to think about retirement, you need to dig into you as a human being, your behavioral and emotional instincts to be able to really, truly enjoy your time and your money without fear and with an ability to kind of let go.

And that isn't all about a maths problem that is solvable with equations. That is a time where we need to look inside, look us as human beings, do a bit of groundwork on ourselves, rediscover our purpose and our identity, and then move forward. Because it is, I think, seeing people that enjoy this phase of life like they do, they are some of the happiest people I know because they've aligned their life and their work all with more meaning and more aspiration. And so, yeah, that would be the one big takeaway, I would say.

Well, and I really hear in there, too, is what we spend as financial advisors a lot of time on is the numbers aspect, right, of how much is going to be. Are you going to make it to the end, all the rest. And what I hear you saying is, what do you value? What do you care about? What. What really drives you every day? Not just on a Tuesday, but what drives you every day? And what's going to matter? Like, I. I kind of love slash scared of the coffin that you mentioned at the very beginning, but I think that's totally right at the end of the day, you're not taking that with you. What is it that's going to be on your tombstone that mattered? That really was the Explanation point at the end.

You know, I talk about memories and experiences a lot and I think that's the thing for me. Right. We, we as financial planners I think have such an amazing and privileged position within our clients lives. They, they will rarely open up like they do to us as their financial planners. We know that money is a, you know, is a lightning rod for emotions. We know that just, you know, a couple of even half decent questions people are ready to spill about what's going on. And so with that information comes a great responsibility I think. Was that someone in Spider man said that? Right? Something like that.

And a power to be able to use that information and help our clients live that life that they absolutely deserve and want to live. And I don't think any other professional, any other friend, potentially any other colleague within, in our clients lives gets to truly, you know, understand that that level of, of of information from them. And so what I want us to do is as financial planning professionals is to take that and run with it and go, do you know what? We can use that information and we can make your lives better by helping you with everything to do with your financial life, with your life beyond work. Because I don't think anyone else will help them in this really.

Yeah, well, and I think that's what your book does and that's what your keynote does, is it gets the right questions to ask and know what to say to that client across the desk. Because we're very comfortable with the numbers, let's be honest, we're comfortable with the spreadsheet. That's where we want to stay. And you're asking us to go on this very dangerous slash difficult journey of opening up the floodgates because it's a lot more listening, it's asking the right question or questions, I should say. I don't think there's a single right question, but asking those right questions to invite them to share and that can be a very scary place as an advisor.

Yeah, yeah. Silence is horrible, isn't it? I mean you ask a great question and we all know through George Kinder's work and other people's work that you need to give space for people to answer and that's a scary place to be. But if we can ask those questions, if we can give people the ability to take things home with them. I think that's part of what I want to do with the book and the keynote. Give advisors ideas and give the public ideas about what can I take home in my own space and really think about how can I Make this journey better. What are the tools needed to be able to go and, you know, really unlock this, this thinking and. Yeah, and give people permission to think like it. Right.

That's, that's, I think that's part of what's happened in the whole retirement industry. There's very little permission to think about this stuff. It's all kind of, by the way, you should be in white linen matching suits, running down a beach with a cocktail in your hand. It's kind of that, you know, and I still see brochures over here in the UK with all this on like beaches and umbrellas and, you know, and, and happy faces and it's like, that's cool, I get it. But that's not, that's not what 365 days of the year retirement looks like. People need foundational purpose. They need to understand what, you know, who they are beyond the job title. When their inbox isn't full up with emails and their calendar isn't full for them.

You know, one of the big things for me is that freedom is horrible if you haven't planned for it. People want freedom, but it just feels like unstructured time and unlimited choice, which people just freeze and they don't, you know, they don't do anything. So we have that ability to communicate what's going on. We have that ability to listen to our clients and their challenges and help them, but also communicate those challenges out to people. And the more that we can talk about this, the more people understand it, the more that, you know, real retirees themselves are communicating this with one another, the more that us as financial planning professionals are talking about this stuff, the better our work will be, the more impactful it will be and the better our clients lives will be for it.

Will you just hit it on the head? It was the fact that freedom is what we're talking about. Right. And that frames it in a totally different way. Because when you start the conversation with what that looks like, that's a much different conversation than how much do you have in your retirement account right now? I love that. Dan, thank you so much for joining us today. And if you're looking for a speaker who blends humor, humanity and hard truths about retirement, learn more and book dan halett@financialbehaviorthoughtleaders.com you can also do a deeper dive by grabbing his book. We'll put that in the speaker notes and you can hear more from dan on Humans vs Retirement podcast. Thanks for listening to Financial Behavior Thought Leaders where keynote stories come to life.

We'll see you next time.

Sam.