The Retirement Rebellion – How Gen X Retires and The Challenges They Face with Dan Haylett

Hi, welcome to Financial Behavior Thought Leaders. I'm Mary, and this is the podcast that takes you behind the scenes with some of the top thinkers and speakers in financial services. In season two, we're focusing on the future of financial conversations, how trust, communication, and decision making are evolving, and what that means for you to engage with your money in both our work and our lives. So whether you're in financial services, you're planning events, or you're simply curious about your own money, you're in the right place. Hit subscribe and we're glad you're here.

Today we're going to explore how Gen X is rebelling against the old retirement rulebook and what that means for how we plan and talk about life after work. And I am joined by the one and only Dan Haylett. Let's dive into his perspective, his keynote, and how this shows up in real conversations. Welcome back, Dan.

Hey Mary, lovely to be with you. Thank you for having me again.

It's great to have you here. Okay, so you've literally written the book on retirement. But we stand with a challenge. This Generation X, I want you to really tell us about what's changing in the way they think about retirement and what advisors really need to be paying attention to.

Yeah, I I call them, and you mentioned it there, I call them retirement rebels, right? This is where I think y we we've got a generation of people where the rule book is very different. they observed from their parents and their grandparents maybe what retirement maybe defined it for a lot of people is defined as this, you know, kind of leave work one day, sit in the armchair, have a

You know, final salary, defined benefit type, guaranteed income, and and and that. So from a from a from a human point of view, from an emotional behavioral point of view and a financial point of view, the retirement that they've witnessed and grown up and been fed has dramatically changed internally and externally for them. So I call them retirement rebels. These are people that that I think have two main characteristics.

That are very different. The Gen X's have very different characteristics than others. And I think we've we've got people that really want unconstrained freedom and the ability to explore. And we've got people that want to be, you know, continually growing and have purpose. And the retirement that they have witnessed, the retirement I think that's still fed through to them through the media and everything like that, i is against those two things.

And so the whole notion of retirement just feels very strange to them. And there's no one for them to think about how to model this against. They're living longer, they're much more adventurous, they want to be kind of ensuring that they are, as I said, growing and still have purpose and doing what's important to them. So, yeah, I think that to me defines what what what what a retirement rebel is.

And I'm sure we'll get onto this in a minute. I think we can almost then split this into two, right? What does it mean in terms of them as human beings? And what does it mean in terms of how they think about their money at at this phase of life?

How is that conversation going with Gen X?

Yeah, I I I think it it it it relates to how they think about life and money, right? So I I do think that there is still this concentration on the numbers. So I think lots of financial planners are planning retirement like it is more of a math problem than it is a human problem. So there's this focus on pure optimization of numbers, but

what Gen X's are more so than ever ever, the the people I think j generally are they they're kind of more outgoing, more fun, more ambitious, and more driven by purpose and more driven by values, right? I think we see that with Gen X's in a lot of how they what they buy, what they get connected to. you know, y you you look at brands like Patagonia and p you know, brands that stand for something,

there's a lot more value-driven living, I think that that they that they do. And I think what they what they often do is see retirement as a new beginning, purpose drives their life, identity isn't tied to a job. you know, that that they want to get out of their comfort zones, they value relationships. and and I'm not saying that other people didn't have this, but I'm when I'm speaking to Gen X's, these are the real things that are coming through. And

you know, money is seen much more the by these as a tool, you know, as as kind of what I call freedom fuel. They just want to get to the we and the rise of the fire community is is a big part of this, right? It's kind of, you know, we want to we see money as a means to get to a a life that we want to to to lead. And so if we don't ask them about their lives, if we don't think that to them, this next phase of life, because by the way, don't use the word retirement.

Right.

To someone in in a Gen X. They don't, it's it's a term that they don't really relate to. If they want to get to this next phase of life and all we're doing is focusing on the spreadsheet, because we believe it is more of a spreadsheet problem, then they won't connect their money with everything else and it falls flat on its ears. and so I think this is about ensuring that we we we understand both sides of of the human and the money problem, but connect the two and ensure that we're dealing with.

much more of the purpose and values and what they want to try and do with their life and how money can support their well being.

Absolutely. So for those of you that don't know FIRE movement, fire is financial independence and retire early. That has been a huge trend among this generation. The other part that I really want to dig in here is you keep mentioning values. And can we spend a little bit of time on how values show up in your spending? You just gave us a great example of Patagonia. Talk to us more about you don't even have to tell people what you value.

you see it in their spending. Talk to us more about that.

Yeah, I I think there is a what what's really interesting, I think, about Gen X's is that you know, when I speak to those people, they they are living or or or walk or walking the talk much more than any other generation. What I do see with slightly older people is they talk about values, but then you look at how they have previously spent their money and how they're spending it now, and their bank statement says something very different to kind of what they're saying. But it feels like

The there's a the there's a generation, cohort of people coming through to retirement or thinking about the next phase of their life. And they truly are you know, walking the talk. They they they are saying that they have these values, they are more understanding around, I think, some of the issues that affect the planet and affect our well-being, and they want to do something about it, and they want to spend their money in line with.

With those values. And they get, and I think the key thing here to understand is that, and there's a couple of great books. Elizabeth Dunn wrote a book called Happy Money about how we spend money to make us happy. if we understand their values and help them truly align their spending with their values, the dollars and pounds, it doesn't matter how much it is.

The happiness comes from spending the money in line with their values. And if we understand that Gen X's are much more value-driven than any other generation that we've dealt with, then we need to ensure that we dive into their values. And very simply, I think, you know, we we are more open, I think, with data gathering in the financial world now. And we get to see people spending patterns, maybe their bank statement, maybe we get to ask them to to create spending plans.

And I think we should spend time on that. We shouldn't just see that as an exercise to do a fact find. We should ask them, what does that mean? And why have you spent that on that? Not obviously not in the least intrusive way that you can, that you can do it. But it's really important to understand what makes them happy and their values will will drive a lot of that.

You know, and it's a bit of hitting the the break on that and and sitting and reflecting for a minute. It's the deeper work and the deeper thinking because we have so many tools now that make it so easy that just say, Yep, here's how you spend and here's what you do. But it's actually the cognitive process of watching and seeing and asking questions about how that spending plays out in their everyday life. Okay.

Mm. Absolutely.

So I want you to dig into your keynote. It's called the Retirement Rebellion. Tell us how do you address the shift that's taking place inside the keynote?

Yeah, I so th the way that I look at it is I I've got this thing called what I call the retirement code. And I think there are three codes for Gen X's to confront, plan for, and work on. And those codes are the human code, the financial code, and and the behavioral code. and I think f it f for us as financial planners and advisors,

Tracking the code is is the ability for us to deal with that new Gen X mindset and some old emotional wiring. And I think that's really key when I when I when I when I speak on this.

No matter who we're talking to, I may have just said, you know, Gen X, they're very different and and and everything. They have a different mindset. But the emotional behavioral wiring is in us no matter who we are. And that's historically wired around, you know, identity and purpose and spending money. So they may not have as much, maybe, identity issues as some other people.

But what they do still have is this inbuilt emotional wiring that's been inherited through generations and generations. What they still have is this save the grain because winter's coming wiring that all of us have, and that's why we struggle to spend money, because we are, you know, we're survive first, thrive second creatures. So I think what I try to address is this battle that I think the that will come about, where we get this new mindset.

That is really going to want to, you know, nail this next phase of life, and I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do that. And then they get smacked in the face with this old emotional wiring at some point in the future that they believe that they've got over. But again, it's completely wired into us. So when I talk about the human code, for instance, I talk about that that there's essentially five elements to to the human code.

purpose, identity, relationship, structure, and well-being. So I think for we need to ensure that, and that's kind of around the outside, if you kind of say that's the core. The money code is around, you know, cash flow and income and taxes and investing and estate planning. And then crucially, the inner, the the behavioral code is around spending money and spending time. And I think what what we need to ensure that we do is if we we need to

get the outer ring sorted. We need to make sure we work with the Gen X's on the on the purpose, on the structure, on their well being, because that is where they see all the value. Before we get into anything to do with the money, and before we get into how they want to use their money and their time. And that's really the basis of what what I talk about.

Dan brilliant. And I want to know why is this so important right now, in this very moment? Why is this message vital?

Yeah, I because I think again, if you look at the cohort of people retiring, the people that are coming into this phase of life, and don't get me wrong, there are some people that absolutely want to retire. They want to step away from work. and there's people that want to that don't even want to think about that word and and and you know and go do something v very different. But it's vital because this this from now on.

And and and this isn't a future problem. There are the people retiring now are in the main retirement rebels. These are the the the the next generation of retirees that require this right now. And it's so important because if we carry on doing as a profession and an industry, if we carry on communicating the way that we have done, if we carry on planning the way that we have done, we're gonna we

We're going to get a cohort of people that don't see the value in our work, that it doesn't get linked to what they want to do. And we may, we may put ourselves in a place where we are not adding the value that we think we're, we're we're we're adding at that point. So and so I think it's really important for us as an industry, as a financial planning profession, to ensure that we recognize the difference both.

both emotionally and financially and behaviorally, of this generation of people retiring and how we need to ensure that we structure the way that we work with them, that we talk with them, the service that we deliver, that the training that we put ourselves through, the conversations that we're comfortable having, isn't rooted in an old school let's do a cash flow plan and let's just focus on the money and send you on your way.

It it needs to be more than that 'cause they are demanding more than than that and they deserve more than

Well and frankly, even doing cash flow plan, many just skip that part and go straight into the investment side and just focus there and that's where their time energy is spent. You know, did you want to comment?

Yeah, I I think the investment side is really interesting, right? Because I again over here in the UK, there's quite a polarization of this kind of ethical versus non-ethical type thing. you know, do we invest that I think we have to kind of be respectful for what people believe in, right? And if we understand that there's a there's values that our clients of the here and the now and the future want to express through.

The wealth that they've created, then we need to understand that that's part of their values. If they want to, you know, be more generous in their giving of money, we need to show them the best way to do it and explore the whys and hows and what's important to them. And I think, you know, from an investing point of view, from a spending point of view, I think we can be quite dismissive as a as an industry and a profession.

and I think that could be to our detriment because I do think, as I said, more and more people will start to have these views and will absolutely want to speak to someone about how they express those views with their money and their wealth.

But are we ignoring them? Are they the ones in the corner that were like, hey, you don't fit in this box, you don't fit in the my process or the way I've typically done things? And what's going to happen? Well, McKinsey's outcome was 70% of spouses, typically women, are going to fire their financial advisor after within a year of their loved one dying. That same thing could happen with Gen Xers if you don't adapt.

And change to really meet them. What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, I I I absolutely agree. And and I think it's I I think it's understanding the the the the the mindsets and the values of of the family unit, right? You we have to understand what that is. And some families have a very similar mindset. some families have different ones. I've I mean the example, it's not necessarily a Gen X example, but

Example I've got, I exactly that happened to me. I started working with a lady in her late 70s about four or five years ago. her husband passed away, her husband dealt with all the money, he had the financial advisor. he passed away, she went to see him, and all he talked about was growing the investments as per her husband's kind of plan. And she said to him, Well, that's not my plan. I you know, I respect him, but I'm much more generous. I've now got more money than I need.

I would like to start giving this stuff away. And he basically told her not to, not to do it, right? That was, you know, he he didn't have, he didn't know her. and so she's come to me through a connection that we had and started going, Well, this is the, you know, she had a very different view of their their wealth than what her husband had. And when she had control of that, she wanted to fully express that view and those values.

And she actually done it in a way that was quite sweet. She was like, I know that my husband wanted to give his money away, but he was a very different mindset to me. I'm doing it for me, and I know he would want to do it. So I I can actually now, you know, honor some of what he wanted, but he couldn't actually give bring himself to to do. and I think we'll see that again if we're, you know, if we're not understanding why these.

What these Gen X's and what the new generation of retirement rebels are wanting from their money, when they get full control of it or when they come to the point that they need to start using it, I do think it's a v it's a very challenging conversation. If we are working with people now and all we're talking about is growing the pot and we're having this traditional conversation,

We won't know what they want to do with it when they hit that time. And if we can't have that conversation at that point, then they will go look for someone that that that will help them. I think that's the loyalty is not there as well, right? I think if we're running these bus our businesses, you know, they are if you look at how people over the last 20 years have moved around jobs, you know, if they don't, if they don't have somewhere that they fits in with what they want.

or they value or goes against what they believe in, then they move jobs, right? That never happened forty, fifty years ago. People just stuck with their job. And I think if we deliver something that's process driven, that doesn't fit in with what they want, they'll go and find someone else. They won't stick around like older generations of people with their financial advisors.

Absolutely. Yep.

So true. So brilliant. Okay, I want you to tell us who is this talk best suited for and what can someone expect to walk away with when it comes to helping others.

Yeah, so so I mean, you know, financial planners and advisors that want to understand and get into maybe the depths of the mindset of Gen Xs. you know, I do I I I go through purpose and identity. I I I give key actions around here. Here's some questions that I know work from from from my point of view, why purpose is important.

To to understand why it's in and I get that pushback from people. It's like I'm a financial planner. Why should I even worry about purpose and identity and and all of that? And so linking it back into how it affects people's spending decisions, how it affects their relationship with money, how it affects their relationship with you. That's why we should be ha having these conversations. So not only am I gonna talk about the whys, but I wanna give away practical things to be able to do.

questions and exercises to be able to take into your day job the the next day and start to build some of these questions i into it with an understanding of why it's why it's so important to do so.

it I love it so very practical very tangible and can be implemented right away if you want to learn more about Dan and bring this keynote to your audience visit financial behavior keynote.com forward slash Dan dash Halet to find everything you need all right Dan if there was one thing today that you could leave with our audience something that they were going to carry into their next financial conversation what would that be?

Yeah, I it's a really, really good question.

I I would say that for the n for for the people that we're talking about today, the client of the now and the future, I would like us to redefine who we believe that we are. and I I would say that what we need to understand is I I use this phrase that the plan and the person rarely meet in the middle. So what the numbers cover and what retirement feels like.

Has a big gap between them. So our job is to close that gap. We need to kind of get the plan and the person meeting. And I think in order for us to do that, I think, and I'm going to use some fluffy hand-wavy words, right? But I think it's really, really important. I think we need to be the translator between logic and emotion, right? That's what our clients require from us. I think we need to show them what's possible.

Okay.

So instead of just rooting it in spreadsheets, be the architect of possibility. Show them how they can live their life. I think we need to understand that we are a coach for that messy middle. They see us as that person. They see us as that confident, that trusted advisor, that coach to help them in that messy middle. We need to be a sounding board for that unspoken stuff, right? They are, I think most Gen X's are much more open about, you know, I get it. When I see it.

In my in my work, if you have a slightly older couple, they're definitely more guarded about talking about feelings and emotions than someone that comes in that's in their early 50s. so we need to be that sounding board and we need to be a guide through this kind of what I call this fog of reinvention, that messy middle, right? It's they are reinventing themselves from one place to another, and we need to guide them through it. So if there's one thing we need to take away, close that gap between what the numbers cover and what retirement feels like for our client.

Yep.

And and just redefine who we who we are or who we believe we are and the job that we do for them.

my goodness. There's so much deep work here, which is why this work matters so much. And this is the part, by the way, that doesn't get replicated by AI. That can't a computer and a bot can't change that conversation, that deep work. That has to come from within. And I think what a privilege it is as financial advisors, as as financial professionals, to essentially be there to hear this, to guide them through this journey, this identity shift.

And really allow them to be what they want to become. You're you're kind of giving them the freedom and ability to grow into themselves in a lot of ways. I think that's a beautiful, beautiful way to sum this up. Thank you.

Thank you.

If you're looking for a speaker who brings this kind of perspective to your audience, you can learn more and bookdan at financialbehavior keynote.com. And if this episode resonated with you, subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast and share it with someone who needs to hear it. That's exactly why this podcast exists. And thanks for joining us today on Financial Behavior Thought Leaders. We'll see you next time.