Transforming Financial Learning Through Book Studies with Andi Wrenn, AFC®, MQFP

Welcome to Financial Behavior Thought Leaders. I'm Mary and this podcast takes you behind the scenes with the top speakers in financial services. So whether you're an advisor, an event planner, or a financial professional eager to learn from industry thought leaders, you're in the right place. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss a single conversation. Today we're featuring Andi Ren, one of Financial Behavior keynote group's exclusive speakers. Andi is an accredited financial counselor, a military qualified financial planner, and with more than two decades of experience at helping individuals and families make sound financial decisions. She's an award winning educator, mentor and advocate whose passion for financial wellness is matched with by her commitment to build, building up other professionals in the field. Today we're going to dive into her unique approach and learning in the community through her award winning book study programs.

Thanks Andi for joining us.

I'm really glad to be here with you today.

Me too. Hey, before we dive into your keynote, I want you to tell us how did you get started speaking? What led you to the stage?

Oh my goodness. Back in the old days, I spoke for my program at gymnastics. I had gymnastics meets with thousands of parents and children and I was basically the emcee for the whole weekend and I did that a lot. I also have a degree in teaching and I love teaching people and being an educator just made it easy to, I like conversational type type of speaking. So anyway, I, I just started there and then with the military program that I was supporting 700 financial professionals. I was giving presentations a couple times a month, basically presenting and then having networking groups where people learn from each other. So it's just been something that's been part of my every day, I feel like for 40 years.

Well, and that's the part that I've kind of chuckled, we've chuckled about in the past is you are the busiest retired person any of us know. So you've retired, right? You've had a full career. You've. And I love that you started with your gymnastics. I mean, you were completely outside of financial services, came in as a military spouse, have done incredible things, including the president of AFCPE recently. And you're retired, but you're not.

What are you doing? Well, the thing about retirement for me is it allows me to do the parts of what I was doing before that I loved and then to challenge myself because every year I look at the programs that I'm providing and decide how do I need to tweak this to make it better or what can I do a little bit differently? To support more people. And for me, that's what it's all about is supporting professionals in the field. I absolutely love helping people make. Help clients make good choices.

And you're really kind of a train the trainer type, right? Like you really have honed in on that skill set. So I want to know, tell us a little bit about what you're currently doing with your AFC and CFP certification program. Is that the right way to say it?

Yeah. So I have an experience hour program that is pre approved by CFP board afc. I have some financial therapy students as well, earning hours. And then some people are just financial coaches that want to get better at what they do. So we have mock counseling sessions. But also occasionally I get people who reach out to me or get referred to me to work with and I'll say, hey, if you want to work with my students and myself, you can come in and do sessions there. So they have live people every once in a while. Like right now we just finished working with a military widower and helped him get all his stuff organized and we're going to meet again with him.

We just spent six weeks working with him and then in six months we're going to do a check in with him. So it'll be the same four students that worked with him the whole time. And it's really a great opportunity for people to see me in action and practice themselves. The other. So you have mock counseling sessions and sometimes real ones and then you have the presenting track. So being a good speaker and being able to effectively communicate your brand, your elevator pitch, canned presentations, you might volunteer somewhere that you have to give a presentation. And nobody loves death by PowerPoint. So let's make it fun, engaging, exciting, because we want them to take action and then we have them develop their own presentation and deliver that, whether it's consumer focused or train the trainer as well as the opportunity to create short form video because that's a really good way to practice speaking.

Speaking and getting a message across to people in an interesting way.

So I heard a couple of things. One is pro bono. You really work in that space and help people, help others, even a pro bono way. And then the second thing I really want to hone in on is that ability for you to connect the individual who's trying to become certified. Right. I remember there's that gap. You've taken the test, you've learned all the knowledge, but. But then you actually need to get the credential and that's what you're helping fulfill.

How did you see that.

Well, I actually saw a need for it when I was working with mentees that maybe were sent to me through AFRCPE. I had a lot of people, maybe private practice that didn't have supervisors, or I had a military spouse that lived in a place where she couldn't get any hours. Or he or I had CFPs that worked with me that just didn't feel comfortable having those conversations with clients about, I can't afford diapers until next week. Or like, just the whole learning to communicate effectively with clients so that they don't feel so much shame, they don't have fear. And that is a big part for me is building rapport and client trust. It's a huge part of my program, and it gives people. It gives people the opportunity to try new techniques, doing the mock counseling so they can learn from each other. Oh, I really like that question you asked.

Or I really liked how you went through your framework. Or I like the order. Or I. You know what I mean? There's so many things they pick up from each other over the year.

Well, and what I like is it's not just. You mentioned earlier. You're like, as a speaker, I wouldn't say, like, most advisors don't think of themselves as speakers. Right. Like, that's not their first inclinations. I'm going to jump up on a stage and talk to people. Some, yes, but very few. I think most of us just think I want to work one on one with people.

But you make such a good point that even when you're in a small group setting, you're still presenting, you're still speaking, you're still communicating. And so what your program, what I'm hearing, it does is really hone in on those techniques to be able to deliver a speech or a presentation to one, a hundred or a thousand, it doesn't matter how many are in the room. It's that connection. Yes.

Right, right. And being comfortable with being uncomfortable. Right. That's important too.

Yeah. But you do a good job of making people uncomfortable to become comfortable.

I know. I think the presentation class is the class that people are more scared. But once they come and. And we do some improv activities and we do impromptu prompts where they talk about those. And so it eases, you know, their stress.

So I want you to dive in. Tell us what is at the heart of these book studies and why are they so powerful for your audiences?

I love talking about behavioral finance and how we can help clients make choices that make sense in their specific life. Because personal finance is personal. And there are so many fantastic books out there that we can read them. They can sit there on our bookshelf and we're like, oh, yeah, we read that. But when we get together and have small group discussions, because we put people in breakout rooms, and we have discussion questions that I've developed for all the classes, and they go in and they talk about these discussion questions and how they can apply that to the work that they do with clients. Whether they're a professor, whether they're a financial counselor, coach, therapist, or planner, they can apply all of these behavioral techniques that we're learning about to working with their clients. And that is the huge impact. And the nice thing was I got one of my students that did one of my book studies early on said, you need to submit this or we need to submit this for the award.

And I thought that was really cool that somebody came to me and. And saw the value in it.

Yeah, yeah, well. And I want to break down these book studies and. And get to know. So someone who's never been in one of your book study programs, can you give them a high level of what is it, how does it work, and what happens inside these events?

So I try to plan for four to six pages a day of reading, because that's something that, like, you're going to pick up the kids, you're at a sporting event, whatever. You can read four to six pages before you go to bed. When you wake up in the morning, whatever, you can squeeze in a few pages every day. And so you get a workbook. And the workbook has the discussion questions, and it also has the quiz questions. Because for continuing ed.

Yes.

Need to take a quiz. And so we go over those every week. So, for example, There might be three chapters that we cover. We do, typically we do six week sessions, and we might meet for 30 minutes, but we do have an extended period where people continue conversations. That has been more popular over the years than it used to be. But we talk about the discussion questions. We put people in breakout rooms. So usually three to seven people at the most in a breakout room so that they get opportunities to each share even if somebody's new to the field.

Personal finance is something that you are a professional in your own personal finance. So you get to share your own opinions and beliefs and values, as well as how you might work with clients, whether you're new to the field or you've been in it for 30 or 40 years. So we share in those groups. At the end of the 30 minutes, we come back to the large group, we'll go through the quiz questions together. I don't typically tell people if they're right or wrong because, you know, it's a quiz, but they all talk about. It's really a good subject to talk about too, because the quiz quiz questions are usually a little bit different than the discussion questions. And then we open it up for discussion. So if anybody wants to share something that they talked about in the small group or what was your favorite chapter? Did you have a favorite question this week? Or, you know, it's really a great opportunity and people have been staying for that extra 15 minutes.

So it's been really great lately.

Well, and one of the things I love about it, we did a discussion with Daniel Crosby on his book Soul of Wealth not long ago and I remember one of the comments being like, have you, have you read the book? And there were several that said, I bought the book and it's sitting on my nightstand. And how many times are each of us guilty of that same thing? Right. We have great intentions. It's in our, you know, Audible book or it's on our nightstand and we're going to get there someday. But I think what your book studies have done for me in the past is opened up and said, oh no, we're going to dig into the book and not and read it in, in bite sized pieces, but also interact with the material. Because just like you said, it's one thing to have read a book and check a box to apply it.

Yeah, it's really, that's really the magic happens when people have these discussions and then they actually do something with it. And I have had, I usually do like some of the bigger name books every other year. So if they've done it before and gotten their continuing ed, it's going to be in a different reporting period and they can do it again. So I've had people who have done the same book twice because they're like, okay, I did some of it, but I need a refresher, I need a reminder. I really want to impact my clients more. So they'll read it again and join the book, study again and do it. So that's how I end up having people who just do all of them, and then they do them again.

Well, and it's repeating, right? Like it's this information, but you're seeing it in a new light because a year later, you're a different person or you have a different client or a different situation you can apply it to. So it's always applicable. Well, I have to ask, what are some of your most popular books that people just love?

That's a good question. So I would say the most popular books, Nudge is one that has stuck with me a lot because not only are we people, consumers, impacted by nudging, our clients are impacted by nudging all the time. And we talk about how we can nudge our clients, too, to do the positive things they need to do. So Nudge, the final edition is a super popular one. Atomic Habits has been very popular for people because they're like, I read it, but I haven't done any of these things. And I kind of force you to do some of the things, right.

Yeah.

And then Psychology of Money has been very popular, and the Psychology of Financial Planning has been really popular too. It's written for the financial professional, so I like that. And then we'll see how some of the new books go that are popping in. The first book I ever did was predictably irrational, and that was a book that I had read years before. And I thought this impacted a lot of my thinking around money. So that's why I chose it for the first one. And I did that. I've done that probably eight or nine times.

So it's. It's a. It's a good book, too. But I'm always looking for new books. And, you know, I remember when I was selecting my third book, I went to the books, I went to the library, and I brought home, like, 24 books, and then I scanned all the books, trying to figure out what I want to do, and I narrowed it down to like, three, and then I ended up picking one. But they seem to be personal finance and psychology, behavior kind of topics.

It's what people really like.

People love that. You know, how do I help people make those changes they need to make? That's really popular. They behavioral side.

Right. It's the psychology side of.

It's my favorite side. That's a. Yeah. That's why I got that master's in marriage and family therapy, because I love that. Side.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I. So I've got to back up. You said your first book was predictably irrational. How did you decide, like, oh, I'm going to create a book study. How did that come about?

Well, I actually started with leadership books in a leadership group where people could choose to be in it or not. And we would do eight weeks, break the book into pieces, and then we'd have discussions every week. And about half of the people on the leadership team came and they were always by the end of it. I really wish the other half came too. And then I went, well, I think I should do this for finance. And why not make it continuing ed? Because it's almost like a college course. So that's kind of how evolves itself. It's a fun college course, though, where you get to actually impact your clients and discuss and network.

Right. You get to meet professionals from all.

Oh, I love doing the live in person. We're getting ready to do one of those right now too. I've done it at conferences where it's like a pre conference session and we have three hours and we do our six sessions in that three hours. People move around the room and they meet each other. That the first time I did it was awesome. The room had about 60 people in it. And so. And be like, okay, session one's done.

And then they'd have on their card which table they go to next. And so they'd meet a whole nother group of financial professionals. And so when they got to the conference, they already knew 60 people.

It's a great icebreaker.

Yeah. And so they either brought their quiz questions with them or I do SurveyMonkey. So they can do their quiz in SurveyMonkey. They can do it that way too. They get another eight continuing end credits right before the conference even starts.

That's great.

I've done it in corporations where we do it virtually and they have one or two times a week that they do it, that's really fun. It helps the employees get to know each other too. Maybe they don't work in the same branch. So it's not always a branch. I know. I've talked to my FPA chapter about possibly doing it here as well with our local group. So it's really.

People can do it.

Yeah.

And it's flexible on the delivery, so it could be virtual, which is what the traditional way. Right. You've done that a lot where it's only once a week, it's 30 minutes once a week and you get all these CEU hours. But I think the cool part is what I'm hearing you from the live versions is it's really a good way to get to know each other, whether it's a conference attendee, whether it's a neighbor, whether it's your team back at home. So any corporations that are wanting to do this, it really allows for that flexibility, but also that connection which really is at the heart of what we're all doing. Right. If you're more connected, then you're going to be a better. On the outset.

What have you seen people walk away with? That was like an aha moment from these experiences.

Oh, my gosh. I've had so many great feedback over the year. Like, even people who aren't working client facing, they're like, I've used these things to communicate to my teams and to communicate with the people I work with or the people I supervise or whatever. It's a great way for them to just really feel empowered by the information they've read. And it's a deeper level of impact because they're taking it all in. Not just reading it, but rereading it or talking about it here and again and again. And it's just been really great. Like the feedback, the only negative feedback I usually get is, we had too many questions this week.

We need more weeks or we need more time.

Yeah.

So that's why I added the. I added the 15 minute continue the conversation piece. Because I was like, a lot of people are like, the 30 minutes is perfect for me. I can fit it into lunch or before dinner or after the. I put the kids to bed. And then that 15 minutes is there if they want to continue talking about the topic. Because people were like, I don't want to stop talking. The feedback I get every year is like, I could talk about this for hours.

This is so much fun.

I love it. Well, if this is something that you want to bring to your team or to your stage, reach out and download Andi's speaker sheet@financialbehaviorthoughtleaders.com and we'll put that in the show notes. So, Andi, last question for you. I know you have done a lot of things and covered a lot of ground over your lifetime. What is one thing that many people don't know when you show up on stage? What did they not know about you?

Oh, my goodness. What do they not know about me when I show up on stage? Oh, my gosh. Then I'm fun. No, I like to have fun wherever I go. And if I, you know, I have people. I was giving three presentations at a conference once, and somebody was like, are you nervous? And I'm like, not really. Because if I mess up, I just go, hey, let me just say that again. And I'm more of a go, go, go with the flow kind of person.

I feel like I'm a girl next door. I like to be approachable. I'm happy to talk to anybody and help them in any way I can.

Yeah, we were talking at the beginning of this how you're just the typical pay it forward. You're not the typical pay it forward because you're the pay it forward 10 times over, actually. And you continue to pay that forward. And I think that has resonated with so many people that you've helped, that you've mentored and you connect with. But I have to say, there is some stuff right behind you on your wall that also has extreme talents. You are a quilter. As.

And do you. Actually, I'm. No, I don't paint, but I'm a paper crafter. I love paper crafting. So, like, when I retired, I sent a card, handmade card to everybody with a fake million dollar bill. And then I sent them tips on how they could use the million dollar bill when they worked with clients or when they were teaching a class. So that was a couple hundred cards that I mailed out to everybody. I was like, hey, I need money for envelopes, stamps.

I don't care about the. The cards because I love making them. What else do I do? Oh, my gosh.

You so remember the jackets that you made at AFRPE, the sparkles.

Making my next outfit for this conference this year, and it's going to be really exciting. I hope so. I. Yeah, I have a new money outfit that I typically make every year. I was at a conference last week and I wore my. My Monopoly money skirt and People will be talking to you and then all of a sudden they're like, oh my God, your skirt is Monopoly money. Like, you know that means they were like looking at me at least. And yeah, yeah, they look down and they're like, oh my gosh, that's awesome.

And they're like, you made that? I'm like, oh, yeah. I just threw it together like a couple days before the conference one year.

But it looks like a million bucks.

Money pants. I have a couple money shirts. I have the jacket that I made when I was president for AFRCPE logo. In fact, last week at the conference, people were like, where's your sparkly jacket?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I enjoy being creative and it's a great conversation starter. Right. So I'm, I'm making a dress this year and I'm 100% sure it's going to be a great conversation starter. I don't know that I'll wear it out in public everywhere, but I go to enough conferences. It'll get you. It'll get used. I love it.

Well, yes. You are a woman of many talents and much creativity, and I love that. So if you're looking for a speaker who blends financial expertise with award winning education and mentorship, look no further than Andi Ren at Financial Behavior Thought Leaders. Thanks for listening to Financial Behavior Thought Leaders, where keynote stories come to life. If you liked what you heard, share this episode with a friend. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.

Thanks, Barry. Sam.